Intersectionality in the workplace - Lea Kimpele's story

00:00:05: Welcome to same ship different toilet with me you're host mean Etienne This podcast explores the assumption that no matter the job no matter the title no matter the.

00:00:17: Women face similar obstacles on their path to living a successful working life we question whether it's literally the same shit for women no matter the toilet.

00:00:27: Are we asked whether there are places and people that have challenging the status Quo and celebrating.

00:00:34: Unfortunately we ask ourselves what can we take away and learn from the success stories to inspire a fairer world for future generations.

00:00:42: Prepare to be moved and prepared to be just a little bit.

00:00:48: Hi everyone I'm really excited that you're here to listen to this brand new podcast same shit different toilet I hope that you could make it through to the end but if you're short on time check out these highlights walking into rooms where people automatically,

00:01:03: sensorial lower expectation on my performance and just be quiet if you don't want to prove it.

00:01:16: Fault failure is so much easier in shorter even such a small thing as my lady whiteness open up my coronavirus so much.

00:01:28: This company is everybody had the same possibility.

00:01:39: I got into the room and I was this close to closing the door behind you.

00:01:47: Who knew that somebody like you could be the school.

00:01:54: Today's guest is next colleague of mine in a dear friend Lia Kim.

00:02:00: Leanne I met in somewhat unusual circumstances giving it was a business context we've been on a number of conference calls together in the past,

00:02:10: and we aware attending and leadership off-site when we literally bumped into each other within a hotel room and we quickly realised we were going to be surprised rumours.

00:02:22: That was a good way to get to know each other extremely quickly I think these days is call that meat.

00:02:28: But back to the former bit Leah has a career that spans close to 20 years she has sell said that she's on a mission to help people get what they want and she's committed to,

00:02:40: helping teams enjoy their work and do their best work and create inclusive environments.

00:02:47: I've done the former bit earlier but I'd love it if you could introduce yourself in your own words two days listening,

00:02:53: my name is Leah Campbell born and raised in Stockholm Sweden and to make sales my mum is from from Congo and I grew up pretty little class.

00:03:06: And a big interest and early on in school was to travel so I always update for education that will take me up,

00:03:16: so I've been in France been in the UK and the furthest they studied was when it was study in Bangkok.

00:03:23: And I think pretty early and I had an interest for for a relationship Building and that was a big card,

00:03:34: what I wanted to do when he came to business and it started first as a customer facing in customer service.

00:03:41: And later on that kind of shifted towards the relationship that you feel internally in an organisation and how you how you can

00:03:50: elevate business relationships and putting humans first so that kind of a later on in my career shifted over to work

00:04:00: pizza with the employee experience for people team earlier I love how you mention the focus you have on relationships,

00:04:09: improving relationships in the workplace and also the importance of humanity and putting humans first.

00:04:15: This podcast really is all about that it's about humanity and identity with a particular focus on gender and I wondered if you could just tell me a little bit about when you first become aware of your.

00:04:28: Some general I think I started on in the customer service area which was which is often very female heavy teams are back then it was so this,

00:04:38: women 20 years ago so I think back at that point when I became to go my first manager role it was,

00:04:48: I didn't even know about it was in a very female heavy team.

00:04:53: I was also working in cosmetic still there were many women overall in the business but at the top top top it was mostly made it wasn't until the night shift it over to the operations and supply chain which was more,

00:05:07: the male female have teams with the rhino the start it often was the only one,

00:05:12: ingredients and where people were referred to me as a Builder Bob it's rather than buildable I also just finished it off I never really,

00:05:22: far too much about anything to assist easier tonight enough dissected I think the first time when you can have struck me,

00:05:32: add a slap in the face when I was changing from their organisation and have been phoning years and I took on if my first senior position from the get go and work my way up I was hard.

00:05:44: And I was really excited about this is a small company in and one day I was having lunch with my boss who was the founder also and he said.

00:05:54: And yeah I always higher with them to senior positions.

00:06:00: And my first reaction was like ok that's great and then he can see new because I know,

00:06:09: just have to work harder to get ready or so I know that they will try harder because they also frayed that they won't be pursued as soon as well as men.

00:06:19: And I just kept having my lunch and I didn't like I don't even know that allowed it kind of sinking wasn't.

00:06:27: I think even many years later when it kept me what the heck was that that you're using somebody like you leaving the system.

00:06:36: That is built against women for your own liqueur using exactly that last night I am not doing enough in the female.

00:06:45: A something that I could this exactly why I'll hurt you because you were free that you won't be perceived as good as a man's this is why I why you because you would understand.

00:06:54: And it took a long time for me to until I can packets,

00:06:59: and then a whole new level of like my first came out just like this when I have been turned into positions at leadership before because people like it's a woman

00:07:08: different paper because she's constantly afraid this whole story lyrics with feel like I want to have a full body cringe and also like scream in annoyance

00:07:21: and it feels familiar exactly as he said that idea of women questioning if this way I've been picked because I'm a woman because you think I'll work harder.

00:07:31: Do you think this is like the one off or do you feel the this is quite common place in your experience.

00:07:38: I have heard other people say it in maybe less Frank that's like no I'll go with the highwomen because they were.

00:07:46: Is something that I've heard being sent.

00:07:50: It is the absolute rant prospective top of that I think that then the other intersection also came down only a woman that woman of colour.

00:07:59: Rick Stein I think it was something that sort of thinking about,

00:08:05: when I started hiring and I'm lucky that I never really was put in a situation but I often thought about higher especially seen the l.

00:08:16: How would I be perceived if I hired.

00:08:20: And if I can also hired women of colour would I be proceed and somebody favoured my own race,

00:08:30: which now I'm thinking you have it that's what men do your right lower and let's not kid ourselves

00:08:39: identical white man would give a second thought to having another Wightman and I think this illustrates a big difference between the genders which is that women think about their gender

00:08:51: and the repercussions of choices around their gender on a daily basis and that's why I think that once you come into that I think that's exactly what have,

00:09:00: when I had my first leadership position when I was younger when I thought,

00:09:05: how do I hire now so the people at government for all white men don't look at me if somebody who is disloyal then only hire people so I got into the room,

00:09:15: and I was this close to closing the door behind me and I think that's a super in for anything to just like ok I got into the room now I'm going to open this door yeah I'm going to ask people.

00:09:25: Why do people who doesn't sound like it doesn't work like me to try to understand more about the world so that I can include it there vs into,

00:09:38: the discussions on having what's there is it to get into the room.

00:09:46: To be successful you also know that you have to kind of sound like the room that shows you in.

00:09:55: People say all the Wii when I have been burgled when I have disruption but then when you actually come with that disruption very often people I know.

00:10:04: It is too much work,

00:10:06: but I think that that's kind of the it is really hard because when you are in that minority I see it to the information and I got the job but then also thinking keep it now I have to,

00:10:17: still stands for Little Girl behind the little one behind it's,

00:10:26: physics such a responsibility doesn't it beyond hiring Lea has there been anything else in your work experience where your race has been at home.

00:10:36: I remember that I had my first,

00:10:38: big budget meeting when I had to present the class for here and I had a lot of money before implementing the customer service system lottery,

00:10:47: had to go and ask I was really nervous I've never done had a meeting like this before and I said and for 2 nights as a verb a down exactly what you say.

00:10:58: And then the vice president of the companies in the meeting and I cannot go to my presentation basically blackout because I just don't even later on the celebratory dinner I went over.

00:11:13: And I just got her some courage and I go up to him my ass.

00:11:18: So like getting know so are anything you can think about that I could do better this is my first time and he says to me who knew that somebody like you could be the school.

00:11:29: End.

00:11:31: That I understood with my girl but it was just like I don't need them because I'm a woman what is it because I am calling is it and then I get up like I didn't even know how to impact.

00:11:45: My actor really too I think a long time before I felt safe speaking public again before I felt safe.

00:11:55: Asking for space and freckles safe like asking for like just taking business risks because I just felt that,

00:12:03: I'm walking into rooms for people automatically,

00:12:06: same sorry level lower expectation on my performance and just be quiet if you don't want to prove them right so it's a long time for me to.

00:12:16: Took a nerve.

00:12:18: Build myself up from that it's such a sad story Leo in such a reminder how words have the power to cut down.

00:12:32: And they have the power to do some serious damage you told them about,

00:12:40: how the way you look was spoken about when we were talking and warming up earlier you mentioned the story about how you look to do with your hair

00:12:52: could you share that with Alice news.

00:12:56: So I decided to kind of do a Brazilian blowout but at least.

00:13:03: Automatically address so much rainy morning straight hair.

00:13:09: All the 7 people came back to me and told me you look so professional you're so pretty and.

00:13:17: How much speaker Giggs I got like being on stage with this was a very heavy environment radio like you had all of these two aunts parties at these different.

00:13:27: And so that accelerated my career that I got straight.

00:13:34: And I had that articles about women special in America felt like they could not have your natural hair when they.

00:13:43: And,

00:13:45: I've reset that ok and never really thought about it I'm not interviewed in a thinking in Stockholm it's a little bit different when you need to do because he did see more people,

00:13:56: but that was the first time without notice at Ralph events such as small thing as emulating whiteness open up my career goals so much.

00:14:06: They have met where no I would never do that again messed up my hair Leeds.

00:14:14: But I wonder if I would have been the same started would I have ever ever landed at directorship if I will never take these things.

00:14:24: So you felt you had to change something quarter your identity something that was authentic to you in order to be successful.

00:14:36: Yeah I think I saw this was still many years ago and race wasn't discussed in the same sense that it was today I am definitely do not have the vocabulary to express.

00:14:47: I feel alienated because the way I love my culture so I could not even start the conversation but I was kind of observing that some of these things what happened.

00:14:57: And later on in my career I have had the opportunity to.

00:15:03: Calling Out by Oasis however never really for myself but for other people so it's I think it's really hard to stand up for yourself and say here I think that you are,

00:15:13: having a cyst opinion about me right now or that you are not judging you the same I think it's really hard to stand up for yourself I have done that for other people.

00:15:22: Is now it is to know why socially accepted I think and also expected that we talk about race differently.

00:15:33: And that has also sometimes work well and sometimes not where I've had.

00:15:40: And the boss was been trying to ask me to take on the next step.

00:15:46: And I just felt that I wasn't ready and I just didn't want to do that role at a point in the future I just didn't want to do it when I was really happy.

00:15:58: Ok do you know who gave me this advice.

00:16:07: How can so it was again somehow then.

00:16:15: I'm not exactly sure what you wanted to say with that means something and told him so there I don't know because you told him he was like another possible but he was just this.

00:16:29: This thing that black woman therefore I will go.

00:16:39: I'm looking for my good place but it was again I was reminded that we know that you don't look like us.

00:16:48: And so I will.

00:16:51: Even though please yeah but you made me feel extremely uncomfortable I didn't know if I was going to hang up on the call and to say thank you and like it was,

00:17:08: thank you being really generous Leah by even talking about the intention behind those words because actually,

00:17:15: irrespective of intention the way that's made you feel is,

00:17:20: is Abed that your race is a topic in all this this leader has basically said a black woman is giving me advice to promote you into a position

00:17:33: for whatever reason and.

00:17:36: You know let's invert this would you ever say a white man told me to give you this job it's just bonkers actually.

00:17:47: But it does bring up this topic of representation and I think this is something that there's a lot of discourse on at the moment and perhaps in this example that is what leader was,

00:18:00: was alluding to you know that,

00:18:04: it is widely Wiley hell believe that women can't be what they can't see so representation matters it matters to have women in those top posts and win

00:18:15: Halloween those top poster than other women and women of colour can't believe it's possible.

00:18:21: And we've talked about the findings Leah haven't we from the Leaning and McKinsey report that was recently released where,

00:18:28: it showed that for every 100 men hired,

00:18:33: little over 50 black women there's an incredible difference there and actually that number has Fallen back to 2019 levels.

00:18:47: Like I said earlier when I was asked by my manager to take on this position,

00:18:53: because he had a good likely to speak about it there is also this this feeling which I I don't want to speak for other people of colour I can only speak for myself here but.

00:19:04: Investigation I also felt ok do I do the same so that I've become.

00:19:10: This face they will possibly be representation for somebody else in the company do I take that answer that somebody else in the room can see ok while there are women of Colour in a leadership position

00:19:21: it may be that means that I have a chance I was really torn would like should I do this for my forever for the larger.

00:19:29: And it's one side of me that feels.

00:19:32: That my manager is not doing this for the right reasons therefore I am also not at all set up for success and because you was in as a person that looks very different in Saudi.

00:19:45: To ever people in the room.

00:19:49: Play them the fault failure is so much easier and shorter summer because you feel like you're working with no expectation you feel like people looking at you different.

00:19:58: And again I felt like my manager with the cafe taking all this disposition it was again this like ok you're not you're not 10 out of 10 they won't get you there today but I believe in you.

00:20:12: Indicated including it was more like you should be so grateful or even considering.

00:20:17: So for me there is a part of me that regret not doing it because I feel like maybe I could have role model at the people that would have been like a know what I cannot do this but it was part of me that my own mental.

00:20:31: Is it I just can't put myself through first I am a person who it is very self critical so.

00:20:39: Hey Council looking about my performance and other mistakes I do in etc and then being put into a I would be looked at through this lens and not feel that I had support.

00:20:51: We're just the I just didn't feel that it was.

00:20:55: The best thing from for me to do in terms of my own mental health but I do feel that goes off but I can I can I had a lot of the discussions with Henry feel like well maybe the right thing to do with to say yes because that could help other people be good like me.

00:21:10: But that's also like not the only reason why you can do things like that stream the drain.

00:21:15: I really understand that pressure of that,

00:21:23: have on your shoulders being a role model you know and that decision making of,

00:21:27: ok I've made it to a certain level of leadership I need to continue to scale it in order to show the women that it's possible was at the same time not if you're not supposed to be successful,

00:21:38: not if it's not for the right reasons not if you don't genuinely believe you can thrive in that new role and I think actually it's still being a role model to say hey I choose myself I choose to reject this patriarchal.

00:21:52: Unfair choice you're making because I believe I'm worth more and actually I think the

00:21:59: you making that choice is you being that role model as much as you accepting it and being ok I can get this title because you truly know what that title meant yeah exact.

00:22:10: If you liking all this conversation on gender we are evolving and improving in terms of having the right tools and vocabulary to talk about

00:22:19: gender and one facet of this I think is that we have more data now

00:22:24: numerous reports from external bodies consultancy firms and also from companies themselves who looked into and dived into their gender statistics,

00:22:36: what is think of all this gender reporting lead.

00:22:41: Is it being used and if so interesting that data matters in certain cases.

00:22:47: When it comes to these topics I see there is scenery only make decisions based on input and they different from other sources and that it comes to this is like now because they're believe,

00:23:01: 24/7 Oldham,

00:23:11: that's all we have because the day that is really there should be between today it is and it also is said.

00:23:19: And I think you need proving many times around that that being smart about that receives generate even more so even if you're not even doing it because it's the right thing to do.

00:23:28: Boosting the very willing to like ignore that data and possibly them income or just like like building the business and generate income so I think.

00:23:39: I'm never fully understood why it is that you said that piece of data that is just might not.

00:23:46: Television actor Jackson think it's also common sense.

00:23:50: Anything you need in life hard because yes you might have to take a long hard look at yourself when it comes to racism where I think we all that kind of learning that week do you have.

00:24:02: Racist opinions do very much support structural racism all the best and having that discussion but I think also when it comes to there to when you open after use.

00:24:16: Is environments actual 100 centre quality,

00:24:21: you have heavy competition heavy competition for this company if everybody had had the same,

00:24:30: possibilities you would have said that because you would know that you weren't up this morning you were the best suited to do what you're doing and I think that's also really scary

00:24:40: two kind of like a computer with 6 days but I would have probably computer but 600000 to get Brighton,

00:24:47: and if this is such a risk for manly this opening up of opportunities to others do you think you can actually change.

00:24:57: You can't control their things you can try but you can control the change what you can control is the voices said you then try to put them together yeah I think that's such an important part

00:25:07: once you have the opportunity how can you use opportunity to give it to others,

00:25:12: and how can you change the path in the ladder that's under you in order to make sure more diverse people can climb it.

00:25:24: When it comes to the room you then enter it yeah I also struggle with knowing how far to push,

00:25:32: and you need to change the room if you can't feel comfortable and pushing and I think that's also always are choice and I think that ultimately becomes the.

00:25:43: The consequence for leaders that are inviting diverse voices in but not listening to them the consequence for them as they will lose that Talent and they will use that lose that unique Edge and they will have a mental effect on there,

00:25:57: the company's culture so there is there's always a consequence of these choices and he's also sad I think that these people will like,

00:26:10: little bit too late because I think what a wonderful about,

00:26:14: on this new Generations that are coming out there making business choices and career choices are so different when I would do right I give you the person who.

00:26:26: He's a little Donna talk about the you know the package basically yeah I want to hear about your responsibility programs like what is the actual impact you're doing that your water program or something to Billy Birmingham

00:26:39: total back,

00:26:44: these generators are literally fighting for the survival of tomorrow yes and.

00:26:50: In and they're also asking much more questions about like yeah you see you looking at me but what about your free that you have to listen online.

00:27:02: I'm so you're literally not even going to get people into your organisation if you don't start doing the right thing.

00:27:10: And this reports coming out on Saturday and seen in soon generation.

00:27:18: If we're on a top of this but you just like another users not going to be able to ring an all in the game and I think it's also,

00:27:27: like I said before people staying over then I will have to find a half of my leadership team to replace them with various kind of it yes you would do that

00:27:36: is all of your people with Saving Expert of facts and another 70 male came in you would have your leadership to get people that are good at this

00:27:45: yes you make sure the other by telling him that you have the right skills in the room to make decisions that will make your business last they know so I think it is.

00:27:55: It's so interesting that sometimes you were so willing to make changes for the survival of the business but here is a big problem yeah so if you're if you're not on this wall right now,

00:28:06: you just won't have people went to work saying I've missed.

00:28:12: Thank you later for sharing your stories today I know it wasn't so easy,

00:28:18: lots of emotions come up when we remember the things we've been through all that have happened to her so I really appreciate you being so open and so vulnerable and I'm sure I listen.

00:28:32: Dinosaur again soon for another episode of same ship different toilet with me your host Nina Etienne.

00:28:39: Music.