Reflections on Inclusion with Delphine Mousseau

00:00:00: Welcome to Same Shit Different Toilet with me, your host, Nina Etienne.

00:00:11: This podcast explores the assumption that no matter the job, no matter the title, no

00:00:16: matter the geography, women face similar obstacles on their path to living a successful working

00:00:21: life.

00:00:23: We question whether it's literally the same shit for women, no matter the toilet, or we

00:00:28: ask whether there are places and people that are challenging the status quo and celebrating

00:00:33: women.

00:00:34: Importantly, we ask ourselves what can we take away and learn from those success stories

00:00:39: to inspire a fairer world for future generations.

00:00:42: Prepare to be moved and prepare to be just a little bit provoked.

00:00:50: Hi there and thank you so much for tuning in to the second edition of the Same Shit

00:00:54: Different Toilet podcast with me, your host, Nina Etienne.

00:00:58: I hope that you can listen to the full conversation because I've got a really great guest on the

00:01:02: show.

00:01:03: But if you're running short on time, at least check out these highlights.

00:01:08: Society is missing out and we cannot not use everyone's talent.

00:01:12: That's a total waste for the world and that gets me angry.

00:01:16: We're willing to make sure that every talent can be represented in the workforce.

00:01:24: It's hard to call out people.

00:01:25: It requires to be brave because it's uncomfortable.

00:01:30: One CEO said, "It's going to be you or me because I call that behavior."

00:01:36: As a BOM member, I can see that really the fish is stinking from the head because it's

00:01:41: good to say, "We've got this target on having a gender balance, blah, blah, blah."

00:01:44: That's great.

00:01:45: But if you've got only diversity and you don't have an inclusion, an inclusion statement

00:01:49: saying that we are all encouraging a working environment where everyone is accepted, valued,

00:01:55: receive fair treatment according to their different needs and situation, without discrimination,

00:01:59: without prejudice, if this at the top is not a statement that we're willing to write,

00:02:04: then nothing is going to happen.

00:02:06: You're going to get women in or diverse people in and they will leave.

00:02:10: I see it as my role, you know, having a chance to have a voice, to really express my voice

00:02:15: for the voiceless.

00:02:16: Before I introduce and welcome my guest on today's podcast, I wanted to take a moment

00:02:26: to answer a question that a number of you have asked me since I launched the first edition.

00:02:31: That was really, "Nina, why are you doing this?

00:02:33: Why are you doing a podcast on gender and identity?"

00:02:38: To be honest, I've always been aware of my gender.

00:02:41: For close to 20 years, I've been working in the financial services industry and it is

00:02:48: a bit of a boys club.

00:02:50: What I've experienced is that it's very frequent for me.

00:02:55: It's very common for me to be the only woman in a meeting room.

00:02:59: It's very common for me to have microaggressions against me.

00:03:05: So for instance, to be asked to tidy up, to be asked to serve the coffee, I've had clients

00:03:14: or third parties assume that I'm more junior than I am.

00:03:20: But what's really woken me up to it recently is the fact that I've become a mother to two

00:03:26: daughters and I am, to be really frank, frightened for them.

00:03:30: I'm frightened for what they would experience because if we just take a look at the statistics,

00:03:35: we know from the World Economic Forum that it will take 131 years before we get to gender

00:03:41: equality and that number varies when you Google gender equality.

00:03:47: We know from the trade union congress that 58% of women get harassed in the workplace

00:03:53: because of their gender, 58%.

00:03:56: We know that there is a pay gap of 12.7% in Europe.

00:04:01: So my girls are going to face this.

00:04:03: They're going to be harassed.

00:04:04: It's more likely than not.

00:04:05: They're going to be paid less than their male counterparts.

00:04:08: And it gets me thinking like, is this my fault because I had daughters?

00:04:13: And of course it's not.

00:04:16: It's the society.

00:04:17: It's the workforce.

00:04:19: And unfortunately, what the stats tell us is that the pace of progress towards equality,

00:04:25: towards diversity, towards flexible and inclusive workplaces is slowing.

00:04:31: And so for me, that's just not acceptable.

00:04:33: And I want to do my part in raising this topic, in adding my voice to the conversation in

00:04:40: the hope that it can invoke some change.

00:04:42: And the mountain is high that I'm looking to climb.

00:04:47: And as my guest on this week's podcast says, it might seem like a drop in the ocean, but

00:04:51: the ocean is made of drops.

00:04:54: And I really like this metaphor because it inspires me to do my part.

00:04:59: It inspires me to play my role.

00:05:01: And even if I can't change the world, if I can just change the mind of a couple of you

00:05:06: listening today, and if you can change the mind of a couple of people listening, then

00:05:11: those drops will add up.

00:05:13: And those drops will add up to a tide.

00:05:16: And that tide can change things.

00:05:19: So that's my answer to why.

00:05:23: And I'm very excited to introduce today my guest, Delphine Mussell.

00:05:33: Delphine is a bit of an e-commerce legend.

00:05:36: I'm flattering her now.

00:05:38: And she's also a passionate diversity and inclusion ambassador.

00:05:44: Delphine started her career in the 1990s working for a Boston consultancy group, BCG.

00:05:50: And she's also worked for companies like Tommy Hillfigure and Zalando.

00:05:54: At Zalando, she played a key role in growing the markets as one of their early VPs, helping

00:06:01: them on such a successful growth trajectory.

00:06:05: Delphine now acts as a non-executive director and board member for companies and household

00:06:10: names like Holland and Barrett, Refurbed and Decathlon.

00:06:14: I'm so excited for our conversation today because I think we will learn so much from

00:06:18: her experience.

00:06:22: Delphine, welcome.

00:06:23: I've done the formal part of the introduction, but it would be great if you could share your

00:06:28: story and a bit about yourself with our listeners today.

00:06:31: Sure.

00:06:32: Thank you very much for welcoming me in your podcast.

00:06:34: So I'm Delphine, as you can hear, I'm French.

00:06:37: I've been working for a long time now, starting my career in consulting at BCG.

00:06:43: And then moving from strategy to operations, working in e-commerce, starting in a startup

00:06:49: back in the days in 1999, pre-Google, pre-iWords in e-commerce, and basically staying in that

00:06:56: industry because it's been such a fun ride, every year, year and a half, a complete disruption.

00:07:02: Today we're talking about generative AI, but a few years ago was blockchain, a few years

00:07:05: before was Instagram, et cetera.

00:07:07: So we had so much disruption of being staying in that industry for a very long time.

00:07:12: And since five years, I'm actually helping CEOs and executive team, really understanding

00:07:17: the challenges and opportunities in the digital environment and building successful strategies

00:07:22: by being a board member or chairperson, and I'm currently having five different assignments.

00:07:30: I'm actually calling myself a radical feminist because I think not that I'm fighting in a

00:07:36: way that would be violent or anything, but I think we need to go to the roots, radical

00:07:40: meaning the roots.

00:07:41: We need to go to the root cause of problems and why our society is not inclusive and not

00:07:46: giving a good way of everyone to express their full potential.

00:07:52: So we're definitely totally into your agenda of giving a chance for everyone to really rise

00:07:58: and shine.

00:08:03: I love the concept behind how you articulate radical feminism, Delphine, in that you are

00:08:09: looking at the root of the problem, the cause of the imbalances we're seeing in society

00:08:15: today, in the workforce today.

00:08:18: It seems very powerful and I'm sure we'll talk about it at length.

00:08:22: To start with though, I wondered if you could just share a little bit about your experiences

00:08:26: of gender.

00:08:27: How's being a woman being a topic for you in your life?

00:08:33: So on the topic of my gender, I think it was not really a topic when I was young.

00:08:40: Apart from ballet classes, I've not been educated with a strong gender bias.

00:08:45: We were doing activities with my family that were rather genderless.

00:08:49: I had two brothers, one older, one younger, and we were playing the Legos in our room

00:08:56: upstairs all together.

00:08:57: So I think I was raised in a way that was not pushing into me being this good girl.

00:09:05: However, society, even though it was not my family, society of course with all the Disney

00:09:13: princesses and everything had an impact on me.

00:09:16: I think I had also a big luck to have great role models.

00:09:20: Of course, my grandparents were born at the beginning of the 20th century, so it was a

00:09:26: different life.

00:09:27: But still, my grandmother on one side was a pharmacist and she started her career having

00:09:31: her own pharmacy shop until she had two kids.

00:09:35: So she was working and having kids.

00:09:38: So at that time was quite novel to have first to do studies, but actually to actually work.

00:09:44: My other grandmother also had done studies.

00:09:47: She didn't work, but she was still very active.

00:09:50: So somehow the idea that women could raise to a certain level by education was completely

00:09:55: a given and working was also somehow a given.

00:09:59: My mum was also working.

00:10:00: So I think I've been raised with role model that already gave me the idea that there were

00:10:06: not so many differences between men and women.

00:10:09: Yes, to powerful female role models.

00:10:12: They're so important, aren't they?

00:10:15: And it's very reassuring to hear that because as a working mum, I do sometimes, I think

00:10:21: like many women question, am I present enough with my kids?

00:10:25: Am I doing the right thing?

00:10:26: Should I be working?

00:10:27: Should I be at home with them?

00:10:29: All of those kind of societal pressures and questions come up.

00:10:32: But in your story, it's clear that you had those role models and they did make a difference.

00:10:38: So actually showing your kids that it is okay for women to work and that you can work is

00:10:44: a really important part of building that story and creating those opportunities.

00:10:49: So that's very reassuring.

00:10:52: Back to the world of work, Delphine, how has your gender played a role there?

00:10:57: So actually gender has been definitely a difficult thing.

00:11:05: The most important element is around recruitment.

00:11:08: For a very long time, it's been mostly when there was men and women at the same level,

00:11:13: it's been mostly men being chosen.

00:11:15: I think it's quite funny because I meet people who are telling me, you know, it's very hot

00:11:19: for a white male 50 years old at the moment.

00:11:23: And I was talking to a former co-worker from Tommy Hilfiger and he told me, "Yeah, I've

00:11:30: been actually in an interview process and we were two at the end and they gave the job

00:11:34: to a woman."

00:11:36: And I just asked this question, "Is it the first time it happened to you?"

00:11:40: And then he looked at me and said, "Oh my God, it happened to you many times."

00:11:42: And I said, "Yeah, welcome to the club.

00:11:45: It happened to me every time.

00:11:47: I had to be extra strong, but if I would be at the same level, I would be denied the role."

00:11:53: So I think this is really this element around recruitment has been really an issue being

00:11:58: a woman.

00:12:00: But the most challenging thing is really this ordinary sexism.

00:12:06: There are three areas of ordinary sexism.

00:12:09: And I think it's important to talk about it because people are not necessarily aware.

00:12:13: I think the first one is familial calling.

00:12:15: You know, when people say, "Hey, beautiful.

00:12:17: My darling, it looks nice, but it reduces you to the expectation of beauty."

00:12:23: In French, we're both saying, "Sois belle, été toi."

00:12:25: You know, "Be nice and be beautiful and zip it."

00:12:29: And I think it's one thing that it looks nice when people call you on your beauty or your

00:12:36: aesthetic appearance, but it's really not building your ethos.

00:12:44: The second one is the biases and competencies.

00:12:46: You know, "Oh, we need to take a woman for HR because women are caring."

00:12:51: And basically, women are missing out on the meaty roles with high exposure because they're

00:12:55: not given the most challenging projects because we think they're just nice and friendly.

00:13:01: And reverse, they might have a bias against them when they're tough.

00:13:03: You know, like, she's so direct.

00:13:05: Yeah, which would be a man.

00:13:06: We wouldn't necessarily say she's so direct.

00:13:09: And then there is the other thing, which is a kind of false seduction.

00:13:12: You know, when a woman is successful, we think always because of her cleavage that she managed

00:13:17: to reach that conclusion or she managed to close that deal.

00:13:20: You know, this is really ordinary sexism that I've seen over and over and over.

00:13:27: And now I'm able to see it and calling it out because I think it's very important to

00:13:30: educate.

00:13:31: And I think most of the time when people are performing ordinary sexism, they are not necessarily

00:13:35: against women.

00:13:36: They like women.

00:13:37: They're just making a little confusion between what is nice that you can say in a date and

00:13:43: what you can say in the workplace.

00:13:47: And I honestly think it's a bit crazy that, you know, we have to make that distinction

00:13:51: between what's okay in the workplace and what is okay on a date.

00:13:57: And it does just show how incredibly ingrained our beliefs about women and gender are and

00:14:06: how they're really perpetuated in just, as you say, those ordinary everyday activities,

00:14:13: assumptions, actions, behaviors.

00:14:19: And it links really closely, I think, to the concept of microaggressions, which are the,

00:14:23: you know, daily, perhaps not very explicit but implicit ways in which people's actions

00:14:30: and behaviors and what they say actually serves to continue to undermine women.

00:14:38: All of those things build up into really a pervasive bias that's being played out every

00:14:47: single day.

00:14:49: It's really everywhere.

00:14:50: And look at a woman presenting a promotion on LinkedIn.

00:14:54: One out of five comments would be, "Oh, you look great on this photo."

00:14:58: She's talking about a professional achievement.

00:15:00: Of course on Instagram, if she's posting about herself on holiday, great to say that she's

00:15:04: looking great.

00:15:05: But when she's posting on LinkedIn, it's not about her, it's about her achievement.

00:15:08: I think there is this great work from Sista, this group who is promoting more diverse investment

00:15:17: in more diverse ventures in France.

00:15:19: They did a video using exactly what is asked by journalists.

00:15:24: So they basically did an analysis of the question asked by journalists in the professional

00:15:27: context.

00:15:28: I'm not talking about Elle magazine, I'm talking about a professional context.

00:15:32: And then they would produce it in an interview asking men exactly the same questions.

00:15:35: And it's really hilarious because you can see the face of the man.

00:15:38: It starts by the guy doing the makeup before it's shot and then the woman comes in the

00:15:45: journalist and say, "Nice suit."

00:15:49: Because of course as a woman, and I guess you had this too, if you're coming to have

00:15:53: an interview with a journalist and you have a nice outfit, they will comment on your outfit.

00:15:59: It's supposed to be nice, but in the end, it's putting you in this box of this good

00:16:03: girl.

00:16:04: And then after it is all the question about your morning routines, it's a question about

00:16:07: how do you, you know, like, you're the only person and you've worked hard to get there,

00:16:12: what do you think all the people are thinking?

00:16:14: And you see that they're really confused because those questions are asked by many

00:16:18: women.

00:16:22: This reminds me, Delphine, of an advert that the company Orange launched last year in 2023

00:16:29: in June ahead of the FIFA Women's World Cup.

00:16:33: I think it was produced by the ad agency Marcel and essentially they doctored a video to show

00:16:39: that the men's football team, Libla, was playing at its best.

00:16:45: And then over the course of the video, you realize actually that it's been engineered

00:16:49: and it's the women's team.

00:16:51: And they're challenging the assumptions and beliefs around women's football and the fact

00:16:55: that women can play as good and at the same level as men.

00:16:59: And this went incredibly viral and I think this is the powerful storytelling that can

00:17:05: be done that women can't.

00:17:06: can meet the same achievements of men in the sports ground and in the workplace.

00:17:12: Talking about the workplace, Delphine, are there examples you have where you think gender

00:17:19: and all of these topics around how women are treated have gone well or badly?

00:17:25: Are there any good stories or helpful stories you've learned from that you think you could share?

00:17:33: I was mentioning, I started my career at BCG and to be honest, the company was quite advanced.

00:17:40: It's an American based, Boston consulting group based out of the US and they really had already a strong awareness.

00:17:48: So we are talking now 1996, so really early on.

00:17:53: And I remember we had, it's funny because it was on paper at that time, we didn't have emails in the company.

00:17:58: So we had our little folders where everyone, we had this paper, documents like a note from the partner for managing the Paris office on LGBTQI+.

00:18:11: And how we should behave towards our colleague from LGBTQI+.

00:18:17: And to be honest, we thought it was a joke.

00:18:20: I was actually the second woman in the Paris office.

00:18:24: So it was white male young people all coming from the same kind of engineering or business school background.

00:18:31: And seeing this, we thought, "Hmm, really?"

00:18:35: Because we were not aware at all, but it was already starting.

00:18:37: And I think, you know, the fact that BCG was intentionally hiring women, that was already very strong in terms of awareness of diversity.

00:18:46: They tried also already in '97 to have inclusion.

00:18:51: So they created that, it's really funny because they created this part-time role, which meant women were working only 30 hours a week as a part-time.

00:19:00: So of course, it meant that they took double the time to become a partner and it created still an imbalance.

00:19:08: And mostly women were taking those positions at part-time, I mean, I think 99% at the beginning.

00:19:14: But it was really this idea of trying to create an environment where women do not drop from the workforce.

00:19:20: When they decide to spend more time mostly for their family.

00:19:24: So I think it was quite advanced, I would say, for that time.

00:19:29: And it brought me awareness.

00:19:30: I think the main thing that I've seen is the impact of the laws.

00:19:38: So there was this big campaign in Germany, "Ich bin ein Quotenfrau."

00:19:44: You know, I'm a woman from the quota and I'm a Quotenfrau.

00:19:46: So we had in France the law, a Coppésie-Mermin in 2011, asking for gender balance in the boardroom.

00:19:56: And then the Rix-Saint-Laut for a balanced gender in the executive room.

00:20:00: And that's been helping a lot.

00:20:02: So that's for the diversity.

00:20:03: But to be honest, in inclusion, making sure that we don't have revolving doors and people are leaving because they find it uncomfortable to be working in the company.

00:20:13: It's just starting.

00:20:15: You know, as a board member, I can see that really the fish is sinking from the head.

00:20:20: And, you know, recently, actually this week, I asked to add a paragraph on our board diversity policy on inclusion.

00:20:29: Because it's good to say we've got this target on having a gender balance, blah, blah, blah.

00:20:33: That's great.

00:20:34: But if you've got only diversity and you don't have an inclusion, an inclusion statement saying that we are all encouraging a working environment where everyone is accepted, valued,

00:20:44: receive fair treatment according to their different needs and situation, without discrimination, without prejudice.

00:20:49: If this at the top is not a statement that we're willing to write, then nothing is going to happen.

00:20:54: You're going to get women in or diverse people in and they will leave.

00:20:58: So I think it's, for now, unfortunately, I don't have a lot of great example of very inclusive company.

00:21:04: But I think it's our role to make sure that this is on the agenda.

00:21:12: I actually couldn't agree with you more, Delphine, the importance of having inclusion on the agenda.

00:21:18: Because that inclusion, those policies, help to sustain the diversity.

00:21:23: Otherwise, as you say, you just end up with a revolving door.

00:21:26: The diverse talent will leave.

00:21:28: Society is missing out.

00:21:30: Maybe out of those people, we have people who have solutions to fix our world problems.

00:21:35: We need everyone ready and active and we cannot not use everyone's talent.

00:21:40: That's a total waste for the world and that gets me angry.

00:21:43: Because, you know, if you look at fantastic solutions, a lot of people coming from really unexpected backgrounds have been building fantastic stuff.

00:21:53: And today we might miss out on all those talents.

00:21:57: So we're willing to make sure that every talent can be represented in the workforce.

00:22:05: It's interesting, though, isn't it, Delphine? Because the topic of inclusion and diversity is now pervasive as well.

00:22:13: It is everywhere and there is a load of narratives saying how important it is for sustainable cultures, for healthy cultures.

00:22:21: I'm a marketer and from a marketing perspective, we know that we are talking to a plethora of individuals, each with their own individual background.

00:22:31: And so we need to also have that within our team in order to be able to speak to those people and represent them.

00:22:37: So companies are trying. Is it just that they're not trying hard enough?

00:22:42: Or what do you think might be going on there?

00:22:45: Yeah, I think what's happening is there is the obligations.

00:22:50: Somehow it feels like a duty.

00:22:52: So people do an effort.

00:22:54: I mean, it's like everything in life.

00:22:55: When you're making an effort and it's not genuinely from the heart, it doesn't last.

00:22:59: You can try to please people around you and, you know, if you're not tidy, you will tidy a bit more and then after three weeks, you forget about tidying.

00:23:06: You know, at some point, you really need to completely understand the big purpose behind it and really embrace it to be able to sustain your change in your behavior on the long run.

00:23:17: And I think this is where deep education is necessary.

00:23:22: I always compare the situation for people who are from minorities, you know, whether women or the intersectionality as being like a bear in the jungle.

00:23:31: You cannot fit in.

00:23:33: So you can recruit as many bears as you want.

00:23:36: You can tell them to shave their fur to be less warm, but in the end, it's not going to work out, you know.

00:23:43: So you need to change the environment.

00:23:45: And I think this is really interesting also thinking about this famous imposter syndrome.

00:23:51: Actually, I listened recently to a podcast from Dodie Ann Burry on the Dare to Lead podcast from Bernie Brown.

00:23:58: It's a super interesting conversation.

00:24:00: And she showed the research, actually imposter syndrome when it's been researched was exactly the same for men and women.

00:24:07: But it's been used as an element that only women suffer from.

00:24:12: And she's giving this amazing example that I love.

00:24:14: She said, "It's like being invited by your best friend to a Halloween party."

00:24:18: And you say the 31st of October, it's Halloween. Should I come costume?

00:24:22: She's like, "It's easy Sunday evening. Just come as you are. Come as you are."

00:24:27: Have you heard that in the workplace all the time?

00:24:31: And then you're arriving and she opens the door and she's got those gorgeous red boots and you look up.

00:24:37: She's got this beautiful Wonder Woman costume.

00:24:40: And then she's just turning around and saying, "Hey, now let's vote for the costume."

00:24:44: Do you think you have a chance to win this costume contest? Of course not.

00:24:48: And you're just pissed.

00:24:50: So you feel like an imposter because you don't feel like you're fitting.

00:24:54: But you didn't get the rules of the game.

00:24:58: There is a very nice podcast from a French woman called The Rules of the Game in the company,

00:25:04: Les règles du jeu, Clara Morley.

00:25:06: And I think it's really about this.

00:25:08: If you don't change the rules of the game, it will never work out.

00:25:13: I mean, we're recording today a beta house and we had a very interesting gathering two weeks ago on female tech.

00:25:20: And when women were saying, "It's quite interesting that actually the peak of testosterone for men

00:25:25: is from 9 in the morning to 5 in the evening."

00:25:28: Think about the working hours.

00:25:30: And then I was thinking in myself, I've been working in the plant business.

00:25:34: That was my first startup back in 1999.

00:25:37: And we were selling really a lot of those books, Gardening with the Moon.

00:25:42: Because the way people were farming in the old days was based on a cycle of 28 days.

00:25:48: There are days when you plant, there are days when you move the ground,

00:25:52: and there are days when you get the crops.

00:25:54: It was on a 28-day cycle.

00:25:57: Do we think about this?

00:25:58: Do we think that the environment is meant for female or is made for men?

00:26:03: And then do we think that female can succeed if they're in an environment that is biologically not made for them?

00:26:11: So we need to ask all those questions.

00:26:13: It's quite interesting to know that a lot of women, when they're working very closely together,

00:26:18: or even living together in co-working, co-living, they tend to have their period at the same time.

00:26:24: Because they have different moments in their cycle where they're more productive, more creative.

00:26:28: And it's all about understanding our differences and how to leverage those differences

00:26:34: to really get everyone to work at their full potential.

00:26:37: I'm not saying every company should work in cycles of 28 days, but we should ask ourselves,

00:26:42: do we need to work from 9 to 5?

00:26:44: Do we need to make things that are working only for men?

00:26:47: Do we need to have outings day where we're doing very manly activities, like, you know,

00:26:53: sacking really hard?

00:26:54: I mean, luckily, and maybe it's also why I've been more successful in my career,

00:26:59: I love, I've got a lot of masculine in me, I love physical challenges.

00:27:03: But when you're doing activities that are clearly focused on one type of character in your company,

00:27:10: you won't wonder then afterwards why people are not coming.

00:27:13: And then I get in recruitment, yeah, I don't think this person is really fitting in our culture.

00:27:19: Are we talking about culture fit?

00:27:21: Or are we talking about culture add?

00:27:23: These people are going to add in our culture.

00:27:26: How are we going to behave differently because this person is going to be in the room?

00:27:29: This is a question we need to ask ourselves.

00:27:31: So of course, we've got a shared purpose as people working together because we want to be aligned

00:27:37: in what we think is the core attitude, behavior that will lead us to success.

00:27:42: And it might be different depending on our projects.

00:27:44: But the culture itself can be blocking some person to contribute.

00:27:51: I think this is such a valuable point, Delphine, about imposter syndrome because

00:27:58: for a long time I thought I had imposter syndrome.

00:28:02: Something to do with me, something ingrained in me.

00:28:05: I'm not good enough, I'm not confident enough, I'm not loud enough.

00:28:08: I don't show executive presence. There's something wrong with me.

00:28:11: But interestingly, the actual authors or the people that coined the term imposter syndrome,

00:28:17: they themselves are relatively unhappy with how it's being used.

00:28:21: They actually called it the imposter paradigm to start with.

00:28:24: And there's a lot of discussion now about the fact that it isn't a syndrome.

00:28:30: It's not something that is wrong with somebody inherent to them.

00:28:34: It's actually created by the external context within which they sit.

00:28:38: And so if we think about a woman, of course they're going to feel a little bit left out,

00:28:43: a little bit like they don't fit, if they are going to meetings where there are only men around them.

00:28:49: So it's actually structural. It's the structure of their environment that is creating that bias.

00:28:55: And as you say, it's like a bear in a jungle.

00:28:58: The jungle isn't adapted for that bear. How can it thrive there?

00:29:02: The jungle needs to change, not the bear.

00:29:05: Or it's like the analogy you had with the costume.

00:29:09: You know, if you're not told it's a costume party, of course, when you turn up not wearing a costume,

00:29:15: you're going to feel a bit left out. You're going to feel like an imposter.

00:29:18: Like you shouldn't be there.

00:29:19: So I think this is actually a really, really important point that we need to stop thinking about imposter syndrome

00:29:26: as something that's wrong with women, but actually bring it back to the system.

00:29:30: Because if we keep using it in that way, it puts the onus on the woman to change and not the system.

00:29:36: And it's actually perpetuating that bias that creates it.

00:29:39: So thank you so much for sharing that because I think this is a really, really important message.

00:29:45: We're sadly heading towards the end of our podcast, Delfine, at a hurtling pace.

00:29:52: And I'm sure your commentary has already inspired lots of thinking and lots of new ideas.

00:30:00: But I wondered if you had any tips for the women and men listening to today's podcast.

00:30:07: I guess at the moment what is really dear to my heart is really getting people to call out an inclusive behavior.

00:30:16: And it's hard. It's really hard because usually you're shocked.

00:30:20: So, you know, it's fight, flight or freeze. Most of the time we freeze.

00:30:24: We don't know how to answer.

00:30:26: And I think it's very interesting in the press at the moment in France,

00:30:31: there is a lot of allegation for sexual harassment from very, very famous people,

00:30:39: whether journalists, whether actors. I don't want to cite names because honestly, it's really awful.

00:30:44: And most of the time the women, it's most of the time women who have been aggressed,

00:30:49: they say, "I was so shocked, I didn't know what to say."

00:30:53: And the fact that nobody else said anything, you know, on the director of the movie or people on the stage,

00:31:00: didn't really help.

00:31:02: So I think it's really everyone's responsibility when you witness a situation where someone is perpetuating

00:31:09: a microaggression or proper aggression to really raise your voice.

00:31:13: And my personal tip is when I don't know what to say, I'm not prepared, I just say,

00:31:19: "That's interesting. It would be worth talking about it."

00:31:23: I'm working mostly with CEOs and board members.

00:31:27: And I've been calling out CEOs and board members, you know, all people of authority around me

00:31:33: and paying even more attention. And to be honest, it's hard to call out people.

00:31:37: It requires to be brave because it's uncomfortable.

00:31:41: Do you worry about what they will think of you?

00:31:43: I mean, in the end, one CEO said, "It's going to be you or me," because I call that "beziaviour."

00:31:51: So the fact is, in this specific instance, I'm kind of protected, but still, you know, it feels very uncomfortable.

00:32:00: But I see it as my role, you know, having a chance to have a voice, to really express my voice for the voiceless.

00:32:07: And this is, if you have any form of authority and you can look eye-to-eye to other people of authority

00:32:16: or even people with more authority, it's even more important to call out misbehavior.

00:32:21: Really, really, it's my essential tip at the moment, is people who have a chance to change the world.

00:32:28: It's only, you know, I say always, it's a drop in the sea, but the sea is made of drops.

00:32:32: So you have to do your contribution, and calling out is the best way.

00:32:38: I'm also full of biases and full of social norms that I'm saying things which are not appropriate.

00:32:46: And then once I'm called out, I'm thinking, "How on earth could I say that? How on earth?"

00:32:52: So really, starting with myself, I'm really trying to improve my way of phrasing things,

00:32:59: having nonviolent vocabulary, avoiding the too much, too small, and anything which is boxing people into, you know, a stereotype.

00:33:09: And it's a difficult journey, and I make still a lot of mistakes.

00:33:13: So I think it's really something that everyone needs to practice, but especially towards people of authority.

00:33:18: What a powerful way to close this podcast, Alfie, with the call to action.

00:33:26: I think this is a very important message to use your own power, to use your agency, to use the authority,

00:33:35: to call out bad behaviors, to call out injustice, to call out any kind of activities or actions that are perpetuating bias,

00:33:45: even if it makes us feel uncomfortable, to find the courage in order to help others and in order to make a change.

00:33:55: Thank you, Delphine, for joining me on today's podcast. It was an illuminating journey, and I hope our listeners enjoyed it too.

00:34:02: Thank you so much for hosting me. Thank you.

00:34:04: Thank you.

00:34:07: [end]