The motherhood penalty - with Nadia McCowan Hill

00:00:00: [MUSIC]

00:00:04: Thank you for tuning in to the latest edition of the same shit, different toilet podcast.

00:00:08: I hope that you can join us for the full episode because it's a really good one.

00:00:12: But if you don't have that much time today, at least check out these highlights.

00:00:15: [MUSIC]

00:00:18: I do totally agree that women can have it all and women have all the kind of capabilities within them.

00:00:23: But I would say that to a degree we've been sold a bit of a lie that women can have it all at once.

00:00:28: [MUSIC]

00:00:31: That sad fact that kind of director level women are crashing out at a rate of two to one.

00:00:37: You can see that unless there is that kind of supportive workplace and that ample domestic backup,

00:00:43: then unfortunately women are kind of starting to question like, is this the life I want?

00:00:48: [MUSIC]

00:00:50: Then I think we need to be far more tapped into the whole self and

00:00:55: actually really kind of understand that the side that we show at work is actually just one aspect.

00:01:01: [MUSIC]

00:01:03: I've returned now from having three children each into kind of various different kind of work place environments.

00:01:11: And I have always found the experience relatively isolating in terms of trying to kind of like reacquaint

00:01:17: myself with the working world and kind of get my bearings and get sort of back into the kind of saddle of work.

00:01:23: [MUSIC]

00:01:26: So that really ultimately led to a period of quite sort of profound burnout,

00:01:30: I would say in sort of 2022, early 2023,

00:01:34: when I had quite a lot of kind of physical illness as well as kind of a lot of mental exhaustion.

00:01:38: [MUSIC]

00:01:40: Hi there dear listeners and a big warm welcome to this latest edition of the same shit different toilet podcast.

00:01:47: With me, your host Nina Etienne.

00:01:50: As it's been a little while since the last episode,

00:01:54: I wanted to share a little reminder of the intention behind the podcast.

00:01:58: And that is to explore and surface to the world the lived experience of women in the workplace.

00:02:05: Every episode myself and my guests discuss the challenges and the barriers of our gendered world of work and

00:02:10: how that impacts our daily lives.

00:02:12: [MUSIC]

00:02:15: In today's episode, we focus in on a topic that is extremely dear to my heart.

00:02:20: And it's a topic that I'm confronted with on a daily basis.

00:02:24: And it's the topic of motherhood and it's the topic of being a working mum.

00:02:30: And to be honest, I couldn't have asked for a better guest to join me in my discussion today.

00:02:34: Because I'm joined by a very dear friend and a rather exceptional communications leader,

00:02:41: Nadia McGowan Hill.

00:02:43: Now, Nadia and I first met at a prenatal class here in Berlin.

00:02:49: And I have to say she provided such important comfort at a time when I was really at my most vulnerable.

00:02:56: I knew that becoming a parent and becoming a mum would be a big deal.

00:02:59: I just never knew how much my life would transform and how hard it would be.

00:03:06: And yet she was there for me, offering me support.

00:03:10: As we went through sleepless nights, as we learned how to cope with being the mums to needy children.

00:03:17: How we rediscovered our identities and she was there as we both returned to work.

00:03:23: And searched for that elusive thing called balance as a working mum.

00:03:28: So it's great to have Nadia with me today.

00:03:30: And in this episode, we focus really on topics related to what's been called the motherhood tax or the motherhood penalty.

00:03:39: It was a term that was originally coined by sociologists and focused initially, I'd say,

00:03:45: on the wage gap between mothers and fathers and mothers and non-mothers.

00:03:50: But increasingly, we're seeing that there is a motherhood penalty that goes far beyond wage and wage itself is already large.

00:03:58: So the award winning work from Claudia Golden in the latter part of last year,

00:04:04: which won the Nobel Prize for Economics, showed that mothers experience a 60% drop in earnings compared to fathers.

00:04:11: And yet, as I mentioned, it's not just about salary.

00:04:14: So mothers are also 79% less likely to be hired versus non-mothers.

00:04:19: There's 8.2 times less likely to be promoted.

00:04:22: And they also face huge bias and microaggressions on a daily basis.

00:04:27: And so it's a topic that I believe we must talk about.

00:04:30: And to a much deeper level than simply the representation of mothers in the workforce.

00:04:36: Nadja, a big thank you for joining today's podcast.

00:04:42: I'm super excited to speak to you on this topic.

00:04:44: And I'm so grateful for all your support over the past years as I've navigated this experience.

00:04:51: I like quite the news.

00:04:53: It's really lovely to speak to you about this topic.

00:04:55: And I think, you know, I do think that, you know,

00:04:58: mothering together, bringing small people into the world and also trying to navigate that alongside,

00:05:02: you know, busy careers, it's a certain kind of journey.

00:05:06: And it's a journey that's in many ways, you know, quite unique to women.

00:05:09: And so I do think it's really wonderful when you've got a few sort of kindred spirits

00:05:14: who are kind of on that same journey and that you can really kind of authentically share

00:05:17: the truth of what that's like and kind of like help navigate it together.

00:05:20: A big plus one from me on that for you Nadja.

00:05:25: So to kick off the podcast, I wondered if you'd like to introduce yourself

00:05:29: in your own words to our listeners today.

00:05:31: Yeah, really happy to.

00:05:35: So I'm a PR and content professional and I'm currently leading Global PR for Love Honey,

00:05:40: the sexual wellness brand.

00:05:42: And prior to this, I was leading European PR for Wayfair, who are an online homeware destination.

00:05:49: And in the background, I am a mother.

00:05:52: I'm raising three young sons, age 10, eight and five.

00:05:57: So yeah, I think in the last few years, especially, I've been very much in the process

00:06:04: of trying to navigate doing those two very distinct things and having those two very

00:06:09: distinct roles.

00:06:10: And I haven't always managed to get the balance right, I wouldn't say.

00:06:15: And so what I've tried to do over the last kind of year or so is navigate to a slightly more sort

00:06:21: of mission centric and balanced career that will allow me to kind of be a parent in the

00:06:27: background, but also just a kind of happy individual that feels a sense of purpose,

00:06:34: that's in a quite sort of mission centric role, but that's also able to kind of like

00:06:39: dedicate a decent amount of time to my young family and to myself.

00:06:43: In terms of my kind of personal traits, I would say that I'm definitely quite strategic by nature

00:06:48: and quite creative.

00:06:49: And I'm also, I would say, definitely quite a strong empath.

00:06:53: And I think that that kind of nature has been definitely a kind of a blessing at times.

00:06:58: You know, it's been really helpful to be kind of like very strongly attuned to the kind of

00:07:01: teams I've been needing.

00:07:02: But then also it's been something of a curse.

00:07:05: I think when you're a strong empath, it can be quite debilitating at times.

00:07:10: And I have certainly over the years at times kind of fallen prey to perfectionist tendencies.

00:07:16: And in terms of sort of like how I got to where I am today, I would say that those tendencies

00:07:22: have been especially challenging to me while I've been trying to kind of mother these three very

00:07:26: kind of dynamic children in the background.

00:07:29: And I haven't always quite got the balance right there.

00:07:32: So, you know, I think if you're quite perfectionist by nature, you could have a real emphasis on just

00:07:36: kind of like working very, very hard and really trying to get the job done, but not necessarily

00:07:42: having that much kind of balance in the background.

00:07:44: So that really ultimately led to a period of quite sort of profound burnout, I would say,

00:07:49: in sort of 2022, early 2023, when I had quite a lot of kind of physical illness as well as kind

00:07:55: of a lot of mental exhaustion.

00:07:56: And now I'm kind of in a much better place, like fully physically recovered.

00:08:00: And I'm really kind of embracing, architecting this more balanced.

00:08:04: And I would say probably more purposeful life away from sort of the big corporate world.

00:08:12: Wow. Thank you, Nadia, so much for sharing your story and also being so vulnerable and open to

00:08:18: your experience with burnout.

00:08:20: I think it is one of those topics that people often shy away from.

00:08:24: And yet it's much more common now than ever before.

00:08:28: And I think normalizing talking about it is extremely important because, you know,

00:08:32: it is now the new normal.

00:08:34: If I look at some of the statistics, I remember reading a Microsoft report recently that said

00:08:38: that 53% of managers globally currently admit to feeling burnt out.

00:08:43: And there's been a huge exponential, almost rise in people knowing that they have an anxiety disorder.

00:08:50: I think the increase has been 26% since 2011.

00:08:54: We live in, you know, sort of overwhelming times.

00:08:57: There's almost a pandemic of overwhelm.

00:08:59: And I know from my own personal experience that it's extremely hard to juggle all of the balls

00:09:06: that we have in the air, especially as women.

00:09:08: And there's been times, indeed, even very recently in my career where I felt pressure of the work,

00:09:15: the kids, the WhatsApps sort of paralyzed me that I wasn't able to make any decision because

00:09:20: there was so much going through my mind and so much that I had to process.

00:09:23: And it brings in mind a quote from Michelle Obama because I think there is a societal pressure on

00:09:31: women now to have it all.

00:09:33: You know, women have fought for us to be able to participate in the workforce.

00:09:36: And now we feel we have to be everything to everyone.

00:09:39: And we've got to have it all.

00:09:41: And what Michelle Obama says is that that whole you can have it all thing.

00:09:46: Well, that's a lie.

00:09:47: And it's not always enough to lean in because that shit don't work all the time.

00:09:51: What's your perspective on Michelle's words, Nadia?

00:09:54: I mean, I think I would definitely agree with Michelle Obama on that point.

00:09:57: I think, you know, I do totally agree that women can have it all and women have all the kind of

00:10:01: capabilities within them.

00:10:03: But I would say that to a degree, we've been sold a bit of a lie that women can have it all at once.

00:10:09: I think, you know, if you are having it all at once, it tends to be relatively difficult and

00:10:14: at times exhausting.

00:10:15: I think if you look really at the sort of the data at how things have kind of really evolved,

00:10:19: you can really see that women are working more hours than ever before.

00:10:25: They're working far more hours than they were, you know, looking back to potentially the sort of

00:10:29: 70s and even the 80s.

00:10:31: And then actually kind of in tandem with that, you've got kind of parenting, which is becoming

00:10:35: more demanding.

00:10:36: So even though we're kind of, you know, working more hours, we're also parenting in a very,

00:10:41: very different way to the way that we did historically.

00:10:44: You know, you can't send your kids out just into the streets to play these days.

00:10:48: We're now having to navigate far more in terms of aggressive extracurricular schedules.

00:10:54: We're trying to kind of stimulate our kids' imaginations and make sure they're kind of

00:10:57: like pursuing the right paths.

00:10:59: We're really kind of like endlessly trying to keep up with school apps and emails and

00:11:04: WhatsApp groups and appointments.

00:11:05: You know, I for one find it certainly quite overwhelming and we're trying to do all that

00:11:09: while holding down very busy jobs.

00:11:12: And I also think this whole construct of social media whilst kind of can be wonderful and

00:11:17: can be inspirational, I think it is also something that adds a huge amount of pressure

00:11:23: in many degrees.

00:11:24: So, you know, we're supposed to be kind of prepping healthy meals.

00:11:27: We're supposed to be integrating wellness routines.

00:11:30: Our homes are supposed to be beautiful.

00:11:32: Our LinkedIn pages are supposed to be kind of insightful.

00:11:36: We're supposed to be well-dressed.

00:11:39: And I think like trying to do all of this at the same time really can kind of take its toll

00:11:43: as we try and sort of pursue really trying to kind of promote to the outside world that

00:11:49: we're at the top of our game.

00:11:51: And that isn't always the truth beneath the surface.

00:11:54: And I think that that can leave us feeling quite frazzled and depleted.

00:11:58: You're so right Nadia.

00:12:02: The effort it takes to maintain this facade that, you know, we're at the top of our game

00:12:07: is completely, completely exhausting.

00:12:10: And yet you do feel the pressure to uphold it.

00:12:13: And I love what you say is can have it all.

00:12:16: Women can have it all.

00:12:17: They have all the capacity to have it all, but just not all at the same time.

00:12:20: I think that's a really important message.

00:12:23: And, you know, Michelle in that quote also referenced Cheryl Sandberg who talked about

00:12:27: leaning in and actually, you know, trying to adapt to the patriarchal system,

00:12:31: getting that seat at the table.

00:12:32: And Michelle says, well, that doesn't work all the time either.

00:12:36: What's your thoughts on that leaning topic?

00:12:40: I think to a degree there was validity to what she was saying in terms of

00:12:43: the fact that women should very much feel that they have a seat at the table and not be cowed

00:12:50: by the sort of patriarchal cultures.

00:12:53: But then equally, it was very interesting when she was bereaved how she sort of said that,

00:13:00: you know, lean in, I couldn't even stand up.

00:13:03: And I think that so often there's this whole emphasis on being quite tough in the workplace

00:13:09: and actually really posturing as someone that's kind of strong.

00:13:14: But actually that doesn't give like full credence to the sort of real authenticity

00:13:19: of what's going on behind the scenes.

00:13:21: And I think we need to be far more tapped into the whole self and actually really kind of understand

00:13:27: that the side that we show at work is actually just one aspect and that we are multifaceted

00:13:34: individuals with multifaceted lives.

00:13:36: I think as humans, indeed, we are very multifaceted.

00:13:40: We have a lot going on.

00:13:42: An analogy that springs to mind is that of the news reader who sits at the desk and you only see

00:13:48: the upper half of their body and they look calm and cool and collected and they're projecting

00:13:53: a very sophisticated image to the world.

00:13:56: Yet underneath what we don't see is the legs under the table that could be really moving

00:14:00: frenetically.

00:14:01: And I think perhaps that also is the approach that many people take in the workplace where

00:14:06: they are projecting an image that, yeah, I've got this, I could handle it all.

00:14:09: But underneath the surface, there are huge amounts of worries, stresses,

00:14:15: and challenges going on that are not necessarily shared because the workplace

00:14:21: doesn't allow that to happen or it's not deemed appropriate.

00:14:25: And I think that is actually to the detriment of workplaces because you don't feel that you

00:14:30: can bring your full authentic self there.

00:14:33: And I know there's lots of narratives and pros and cons around, okay, but you've got to be a

00:14:37: certain person at work and you've got to act a certain way at home.

00:14:40: Well, yeah, I don't really buy it.

00:14:42: I feel that in an evolving world where we are stressed out, we are facing overwhelm,

00:14:50: everybody is, that it's actually rather the time now to be more transformative and talk

00:14:54: about those topics outside of the workplace that are truly affecting us inside of the workplace.

00:15:01: Otherwise, people can't cope and ultimately they don't feel acknowledged and they don't

00:15:07: feel supported and they're not getting maybe the flexibility that they require.

00:15:11: And so they leave and actually, you know, back to Lean In, although it's in a different

00:15:16: guise this time, there's the Lean In and McKinsey report that's released every year.

00:15:21: And that report shows that there is this real loss of female talent at a leadership level.

00:15:28: Directors, female directors are leaving at such a high rate now, they're leaving at double the

00:15:34: rate in compared to women that are promoted into the directorship.

00:15:39: So it's a two to one loss.

00:15:40: And I think, you know, that is probably because women are struggling with trying to manage

00:15:48: everything going on in their lives.

00:15:51: They aren't able to be authentic and thus they are not able to get the support that's required

00:15:55: to keep them satisfied and, you know, happy and productive and well at work.

00:16:07: What's your perspective on women in leadership positions leaving the workforce?

00:16:11: What do you think is driving that?

00:16:12: Yeah, so that's a really interesting point.

00:16:16: And I think kind of, you know, when you're looking at kind of female director appointments

00:16:19: and you're looking at the ages when that takes place, like quite often it's when

00:16:23: women are slightly more mature in their career and they tend to be, if you look at kind of

00:16:28: Borex data, they are really usually between the ages of sort of 42 and 57.

00:16:34: And I think that it's no real surprise when you look at that period of midlife for women

00:16:41: that that is a period where women feel under a huge amount of pressure

00:16:44: are potentially raising families.

00:16:47: But even if they're not raising families, they are most likely kind of tending to ailing parents

00:16:53: in the background.

00:16:54: They may also be navigating paramanus pausal symptoms.

00:16:58: And that's something that's becoming a topic that is increasingly highlighted.

00:17:03: But before was very much kind of fairly sort of in the background and people weren't sort

00:17:07: of that palpably aware of that period in women's life.

00:17:11: And I think that this is really kind of like quite a silent and minimally

00:17:15: acknowledged backdrop to the working life of women.

00:17:18: And it kind of takes its inevitable toll.

00:17:20: And I think for women, when you look at that sad fact that kind of director level women

00:17:26: are crashing out at a rate of two to one, you can see that unless there is that kind of

00:17:31: supportive workplace and that ample domestic backup, then unfortunately, women are kind

00:17:38: of starting to question like, is this the life I want?

00:17:41: Am I able to kind of maintain this pace alongside whatever's happening in the background?

00:17:47: And I guess it's quite interesting as well, really, because I, you know, you think about

00:17:50: the midlife crisis and you think about, you know, potentially a middle-aged man that's

00:17:57: purchasing a yellow Ferrari that's wearing a toupee that's trying to kind of reinvent

00:18:02: himself. And that isn't really that much in terms of the kind of like narrative around

00:18:07: the midlife woman. But I think that there is very much this period of midlife where women are

00:18:13: thinking about kind of like how they want to architect the next kind of section of their

00:18:19: careers and their lives. And they're really thinking about what it is that they want that to look like.

00:18:25: And that doesn't always align with big corporate culture.

00:18:29: Yeah, I do see Nadia that midlife women definitely now have more agency over their choices.

00:18:37: And I think that's the really important part is that women know that, you know, it is a choice

00:18:44: that you can make. And perhaps what you signed up for in your early 20s is 20 years later,

00:18:50: not necessarily the same path that you want to be on. And I think taking that time in all of

00:18:56: the busyness to reflect on actually what is it that's making us happy and how can I focus my

00:19:02: attention on those things is a really critical step to make. Now, I know that the job markets are

00:19:08: not easy, that we have debts to pay. And so it's not always the case of just, you know, giving up

00:19:13: and doing something completely different, but actually knowing and planning for a change if what

00:19:20: your if your day to day is not making you happy, I think is a really important thing that women,

00:19:25: you know, don't feel trapped in a certain career path or corporate culture, as you say, that no

00:19:30: longer serves them. Certainly, for me, there was a sort of monumental turning point towards the end

00:19:39: of last year, which actually forced me to confront the issue a little bit more directly. And I

00:19:46: suppose two key things happened. One was that I was taking my youngest daughter to a doctor's

00:19:54: appointment, and it was an important one. And I felt completely back to that overwhelm, I felt

00:20:00: completely overwhelmed because I was missing a really critical meeting at work with all of the

00:20:04: senior executives. I saw my slack kind of firing up. And I just couldn't give my attention to my

00:20:13: daughter and to this very important doctor's meeting because my energy and my emotional energy

00:20:18: was actually, you know, at work. And the second thing was really a moment after I'd been away

00:20:24: at an offsite, which was a short notice ask. And I returned and I was on a call with somebody very

00:20:30: senior within my business.

00:20:32: and my other daughter was having a bit of a tantrum and the babysitter that I had was also

00:20:39: not able to handle it, was also very upset and my daughter came into the room while I was on the call

00:20:44: and I actually pushed her away and tried to kind of push her out of view rather than opening my

00:20:52: arms to welcome her in and after that she kind of said to me "Mummy you care about work more than me"

00:20:59: and I thought oh my god that's not true and yet my actions had proven something different to her

00:21:06: and of course you know that was for me the the real wake-up call where I realized actually hang on

00:21:12: this is not the type of mother that I you know dreamt of being and perhaps I really need to rethink

00:21:18: actually my priorities and the way in which I want to work and explore whether you know for the time

00:21:24: being I do something differently that makes me have more flexibility and be able to give my kids

00:21:30: that emotional energy that when I'm with them I'm really present and with them rather than

00:21:35: you know thinking of of of work and obsessing over work. Yeah 100% and you know I mean I've got a huge

00:21:43: admiration for anyone that can completely compartmentalize these two aspects of their lives and actually

00:21:50: not feel kind of like challenged by that dynamic but I mean for me personally I feel like I was

00:21:56: kind of very similar to you. My you know main thing was very much kind of like trying to do the best

00:22:03: job I possibly could at work and especially during Covid I was very much kind of under the gun like

00:22:09: managing a quite a vast remit I was managing crisis communications for Wayfair and it was

00:22:16: kind of like an all-guns blazing kind of time and I felt sort of powerfully aware that I needed to

00:22:21: be like fully committed fully engaged and delivering my best work and sort of navigating through

00:22:26: these crisis moments while simultaneously having a very small family at home that needed you know

00:22:32: to be home school they needed to go to doctor's appointments they needed all sorts of different

00:22:35: things and you know I have to say like I was fairly neglectful of them during that time

00:22:41: and obviously subsequently we went back into a much healthier state where the kids were in school

00:22:46: but my perfectionist tendencies my inclination to overwork really continued and I think it's

00:22:53: it kind of had to come to a head eventually and it did and now I feel so much better for

00:22:59: actually being able to kind of properly invest in my kids and actually do it in a much more healthy way.

00:23:05: Now I honestly believe we might be at the cusp of a really significant transition

00:23:17: in the way in which women want to work which will affect their participation in the workforce.

00:23:23: We've talked about that lean-in data director level women and leaving at higher rates than ever

00:23:28: before women are looking to redefine what success means to them both in the workplace

00:23:34: and in their lives overall and that hyper focus on careers and climbing that corporate ladder

00:23:40: may no longer be serving them so we're seeing women actually choose to exit the workforce and choose

00:23:46: to exit cultures and companies that are no longer serving them. At the same time we need to think

00:23:52: about and layer on the current critique of DEI initiatives which is really extensive across

00:23:58: global boardrooms and those DEI initiatives all around creating inclusive agendas for

00:24:03: minoritized groups and that is going to put actually that flexibility at risk. At the same

00:24:11: time we're seeing the misappropriation of things like the woke agenda by conservative extremists

00:24:16: and we're seeing companies really forcing people back into the workplace. I think of Nike who recently

00:24:24: blamed remote work for their lack of productivity and sales and revenue impact and of course forcing

00:24:31: people back into the office does tend to unfairly impact women because they tend to take on the

00:24:37: caregiver roles at home and it also impacts of course everybody with an intersectional identity

00:24:42: that faces significant microaggressions in the office and yet companies seem to be going back

00:24:47: to that rather more old-fashioned presenteerism. What do you now do make of this shift?

00:24:53: Yeah I mean so I think that the focus on kind of longer hours and compulsory office presence to me

00:25:00: feels like a huge step backwards and actually that was actually one of the huge benefits that

00:25:04: kind of came out of COVID that kind of living proof that you could still be productive in a

00:25:10: more hybrid environment and if you look at the data I think there's so much that points to the fact

00:25:16: that working longer hours is actually kind of counterproductive and it really obviously does

00:25:22: cause burnout as well and you're kind of like working relentlessly it really does reduce productivity

00:25:28: there's been multiple studies that have indicated that working effectively within a four-day week

00:25:33: versus five is actually the better thing to do. I think we really need to ask ourselves what we

00:25:38: can do in the face of those kinds of requirements to kind of work longer and to kind of be more

00:25:46: present and I would say when you look at those kinds of requests it's really kind of important to

00:25:51: kind of think about how you can apply them within your own life so I think as a worker

00:25:56: I would say it's really important to be very focused on focus so the idea that kind of working

00:26:05: harder is the be on and end all I think is actually kind of not accurate and I think what we really

00:26:10: need to think about is working smarter. I think oftentimes you can be very sort of thinly spread

00:26:15: across multiple different projects but are they really kind of moving the needle? So yeah I'm a

00:26:21: big believer in focus I think it's all about kind of cutting distractions I think it's about

00:26:25: ruthlessly prioritizing and really kind of disentangling that notion of working harder from

00:26:31: working smarter and I think that especially for mothers that becomes more and more kind of critical

00:26:37: and definitely is the sort of key to ensuring that you don't kind of go completely mad with all

00:26:44: the different priorities that you're faced with and then I would also say it's important to kind

00:26:48: of set boundaries so there may be an emphasis on people kind of moving back to the office working

00:26:56: longer hours but if you're a working mother or any kind of caregiver that has a life outside work

00:27:02: with your family then it's just not realistic that you can be burning the midnight oil as well as

00:27:07: kind of being a parent so I think it's super important that you do set those boundaries with

00:27:11: your work and place and with your employers and they're actually you're quite kind of consistent

00:27:16: with what you can and can't do because I think as soon as you start to sort of say okay well I'll

00:27:22: stay a little bit longer having you know articulated that your cutoff time is four and you have to go

00:27:27: and do that school run then you kind of create confusion within your teams and actually people

00:27:32: never quite know are you available aren't you so I think actually that boundary setting is really

00:27:36: really key and just kind of being as buttoned up and consistent on that I think is really important

00:27:41: and then the other thing I would say so often the onus is put on the kind of the woman or the

00:27:48: parent to sort of behave in a certain way but I think there also needs to be within businesses

00:27:53: a much bigger focus on education around kind of inclusion you know so many companies now have big

00:27:58: DEI policies and they are much more kind of focused on kind of creating an inclusive environment

00:28:05: but they really have to kind of live and breathe that systemically and so I think if you're going

00:28:09: to offer flexibility for working parents the parent needs to be aware of that but actually

00:28:15: you know not just an exec and management level but actually even the younger child free members of

00:28:19: the team need to be much more kind of aware of the reasons why that is the case and actually

00:28:26: then I think we might get to a place where there's more of a kind of cultural shift

00:28:30: and there's true inclusion and it's not just companies paying lip service to the topic

00:28:35: you make such an important point here I think Nadia around education education around

00:28:40: how to be inclusive because otherwise it it just feels empty companies are talking the talk but

00:28:47: they're not walking the walk and that's not the way to actually create a sustainable culture

00:28:52: that diverse groups want to work within and are productive within and so I think it's it's critical

00:28:59: that education is there for that systemic change to take place and for these very very positive

00:29:05: initiatives to be successful and I think I just add Nadia on top of the importance of that hyper

00:29:12: focus that prioritization the setting of boundaries it's also really important I think to be mindful

00:29:19: of your own reactions so we've talked about this already that we are perfectionists we're a bit of

00:29:25: workaholic we have those tendencies so if you are of that nature you can feel guilty pretty much all

00:29:32: the time that you're not successful on any front of your life and I think there is a mindfulness

00:29:38: and a management of those reactions that's also required to make sure you know you feel

00:29:44: well with the decisions that you're making and not overthinking them relentlessly because

00:29:49: that in itself is emotionally exhausting and I've just got a couple of tips actually when it comes

00:29:57: to focus and when it comes to prioritization so I got known a little bit in a previous company

00:30:03: as a no meeting Nina because I actually didn't really like to attend meetings where I didn't

00:30:09: feel my contribution was necessary and it could be done via an email so I actually you know got

00:30:15: this reputation but what it meant was that I was choosing how to spend my time rather than my diary

00:30:23: telling me how to spend my time and that enabled me to really focus on the areas of my work that

00:30:28: would be most effective and it also enabled me to leave okay bang on the dot at the time I said I

00:30:32: was going to leave and more or less switch off so that I could enjoy the evenings with my family

00:30:37: and I think actively also expressing your boundaries can be helpful so with previous managers I've

00:30:43: kind of said look between these hours in the evening I'm busy I'm with my kids that's my priority

00:30:49: if you need me urgently I'm available via WhatsApp and that's the way you'll contact me

00:30:54: because I'm not checking my emails I'm not checking my Slack and sometimes they would contact me and

00:30:58: I would say sorry I'm just too busy look look what's going on here and so I think humanizing also your

00:31:04: time when it's out of the official working hours is really important now you might argue you shouldn't

00:31:09: work outside of working hours but of course in this world that's 24/7 and in these types of companies

00:31:17: and senior roles that you may or may not have there is a little bit more of working outside of

00:31:23: those those official hours and so I think just knowing how you want to be in those hours and

00:31:29: communicating that effectively with anybody who you believe might be contacting you is

00:31:34: something that I think is quite a useful tip.

00:31:41: Talking of top tips Nadia I know we've spoken at length about how hard it is as a returning mother

00:31:47: to re-enter the workforce are you really vulnerable at that moment do you have any top tips when it

00:31:54: comes to returning mothers? So I think like with returning mothers one of the things that I think

00:31:59: would be really really valuable would be that there should be much more kind of immersion training

00:32:03: not really immersion more re-immersion training I've returned now from having three children

00:32:10: each into kind of various different kind of workplace environments and I have always found the

00:32:16: experience relatively isolating in terms of trying to kind of like re-acquaint myself with the working

00:32:22: world and kind of get my bearings and get sort of back into the kind of saddle of work and it's

00:32:27: always been something that I've had to kind of really sort of navigate alone and I think it would

00:32:31: be very beneficial for parents to be kind of extended a decent amount of understanding and

00:32:38: compassion as they're re-acquainting themselves with work I think it would be really really helpful

00:32:43: for them to understand that it takes a little bit of time to re-acquaint yourself with work and

00:32:50: actually to kind of give yourself the requisite space to be able to do that and also I think that

00:32:55: individuals should be very much kind of encouraged to be quite authentic and honest in that regard and

00:33:01: actually kind of be clear with their teams that when they do get back into the workplace that

00:33:05: they're going to spend the first few weeks just really trying to sort of re-establish themselves

00:33:09: get a better understanding of what's been happening and then that they will be sort of picking up the

00:33:13: work from there I think so often you go back into a workplace having had a child and you're anxious

00:33:20: to kind of give the impression that nothing's changed and you're exactly the same person as you

00:33:24: were before but the reality is that you know everything's changed and actually a lot of benefits

00:33:30: can come from having parents in the workplace they bring a huge amount of wisdom they bring empathy

00:33:35: they have a fantastic ability to be able to kind of like navigate multiple different priorities and

00:33:39: complex topics but they do need to be given that kind of requisite space to really kind of

00:33:44: re-immersance themselves and I think that if that was more clearly articulated within companies

00:33:49: it would be hugely beneficial to the company and it would be hugely psychologically supportive to the

00:33:55: staff. Yeah I think companies have to realise that this is a huge change management process

00:34:01: for women returning to the workplace after having a child but women really want to return and I think

00:34:07: if companies can offer that support and the right flexibility to meet their needs then they're going

00:34:13: to have completely motivated and highly productive women in their teams and I know I don't have to

00:34:19: argue with you here Nadia but it's so important to have women sitting at those tables it's so

00:34:27: important to have women at all levels of decision making I mean women constitute 50% of our population

00:34:33: they have a buying power of 30 plus trillion dollars so you need that female lens in the room

00:34:41: and we need that female lens to create more equitable and fairer workplaces to create

00:34:48: more equitable and fairer products it's just critical and yet so many mothers

00:34:54: really struggle with going back to work and I read this absolutely horrific report

00:34:59: that stated that whilst 98% of women want to go back to work after maternity leave only 13%

00:35:06: say it's actually viable and what the report also showed was that 24% of women go back full time

00:35:14: after having a child so only 24% and of that 24% actually 79% ultimately end up leaving the workforce

00:35:24: because they realise it's impossible to maintain a full-time job whilst having children and whilst

00:35:32: bearing the weight of being a primary caregiver and I think there's a lot of complex things going on

00:35:41: there and the cost of childcare is of course a huge factor the lack of shared parental leave is of

00:35:47: course a huge factor so some of this is you know really nationwide and structural in terms of the

00:35:56: social support that parents get similarly schools are not really adapting to the fact that now

00:36:05: women and men both equally want to participate in the workforce I think on top you return to work

00:36:11: and actually that motherhood tax kicks in so you go back you're struggling you know you're going to

00:36:19: get paid 60% less than your male counterpart you know you're going to receive eye rolls when you

00:36:25: call in sick because your child is unwell or you leave early at 4 p.m so there's not so much

00:36:31: enticement to actually want to stay in the workforce I think these days and all of that pressure

00:36:38: you know leads to all of the trends that I think we are now seeing and I think companies are just

00:36:45: missing a trick here I think that actually they hold the answer to this of course there is also

00:36:51: a societal change that's needed so that parents can be seen as equal in the childcare that they

00:36:59: give to their children but at the same time you know companies can do a lot they can create

00:37:05: more flexible working environments for women which could include job sharing or it could include

00:37:11: part-time hours or it could include flexibility around hours could include having childcare

00:37:17: on site there are many things that companies can do to create inclusive environments if they truly

00:37:23: value having women in the workforce and if they truly want to push for a more diverse and fair

00:37:31: working culture for future generations now Nadia we're reaching the end of our podcast today

00:37:39: and I know both you and I need to go and do that school run and do the school pick up

00:37:44: I wondered if you could share any final tips for our listeners that are on the podcast today

00:37:51: yeah so I think in terms of my top tips I would kind of go back to some of the points that I

00:37:57: made earlier so I think a key thing is really especially if your parent works I think kind of

00:38:02: setting boundaries and I think that that should be the case not just for work but also for home I

00:38:07: think you really need to kind of make clear what your kind of expectations are of you and your partner

00:38:12: and actually kind of like create clarity there otherwise I think it can be quite a sort of

00:38:17: persistent pain point and actually like really quite challenging so I think you know setting

00:38:21: boundaries being clear on who does what I think is really really helpful equally setting boundaries

00:38:26: with things like tech I think is absolutely essential you know we live in this culture where

00:38:30: there's just never ending kind of pings and alerts and slacks and emails and what's

00:38:35: that and it can become completely debilitating and so I think kind of creating a space you know

00:38:40: having periods where you're offline is super super healthy I would also say it's very important

00:38:46: to prioritise your health and stay kind of on red alert for kind of burnout I mean I definitely

00:38:52: learnt the hard way I'm really kind of worked myself into the ground and now I'm far more kind

00:38:57: of cognizant of those kind of warning signs around burnout and so I really put an emphasis on kind

00:39:04: of eating well and exercising on ensuring that I kind of sleep well and get enough hours of sleep

00:39:10: and actually kind of like making time for myself as well and I think that that is really really

00:39:14: key for anyone that's trying to kind of manage this potentially sort of mid life career

00:39:22: pivot I think it really pays to stay flexible you know we can be so fearful of making changes

00:39:30: especially if we've been with an environment that even if it's been uncomfortable has been the status

00:39:35: quite for so long but I think it's really important to not feel stuck and to sort of stay flexible

00:39:42: and really push yourself to kind of reevaluate or reorientate your life if you feel it's going

00:39:47: longer serving you and if the sort of the pain outweighs the benefit and then I would also say

00:39:53: being as authentic as possible is really kind of key in kind of maintaining that identity outside

00:39:58: of work we touched on it earlier but I do think it's really important to know that you're not just

00:40:03: the role that is at the top of your CV you're many different things to many different people and I

00:40:09: think it's really kind of much that and make sure that you really kind of focus on that it's quite

00:40:15: important as you're trying to shape her meaningful life and so I think they would be the kind of the

00:40:20: key tips that I would have based on some of my most recent experiences oh thanks so much Nadia

00:40:26: for sharing your tips for me personally our conversation today has been extraordinary I've

00:40:31: really learned a lot about myself I've had to look in the mirror and confront a lot of topics around

00:40:37: how I've navigated being a working mother and I've learned a lot from you as always so

00:40:43: thank you for joining us and I hope that our listeners have also learned a lot and have a

00:40:47: lot of ideas to take away oh thanks so much Nadia I've really enjoyed it as well it's been such a

00:40:52: lovely conversation and lots to take away so thanks so much